Estonia wins, 88-81: Again, Team Serbia? Again, Milos Teodosic?

September 9, 2012

What can be said about the Estonia-Serbia game that hasn’t been already? Once again Serbia gave up a halftime lead; once again the team was forced to try and dig out of a fourth-quarter hole; once again the lack of communication on offense was evident (Would you believe just five total assists?); and once again Milos Teodosic self-destructed in the fourth quarter…

To his credit, Good Milos still managed five points in the final 10 minutes, much due to his three fouls drawn. Unfortunately, the rest of his line in the stanza read all too familiarly: 1-of-5 shooting, one rebound (on a serendipitous board at the quarter’s beginning), zero assists, one turnover and two personal fouls.

And it all came together – or didn’t come together – in precisely the wrong game. Serbia now faces a do-or-die game against Israel on Tuesday. Win and they’re in. Lose and they’ll need Iceland to top Estonia (yeah, surrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre) plus depending on other results. On the plus side, Serbia’s final opponents Israel have all but clinched the final game; FIBA Europe hilariously reports that “For Israel not to make it to Slovenia, they would need to lose their last game against Serbia in Belgrade on Tuesday by 87 points or more … [even] then, Israel could … still advance if Estonia do not win against Iceland in their clash.”

So go ahead and pencil in Serbia for Eurobasket 2013, but geez, you can’t exactly feel optimistic about their chances in the big tourney. Apparent from these qualifiers is the intriguing mix of old standards at peak (e.g. Russia, Spain) or just post-peak (e.g. France) plus exciting up-and-comers (e.g. Georgia, Ukraine) that FIBA is fixing to present in Slovenia. Where is the young talent on Team Serbia? Where is the evidence of future evolution, as we’re seeing from Germany, Czech Republic, even Italy in their triumphant return to respectability?

As for Teodosic, Zoran Slavnic’s criticism seems more and more spot-on … is a Team Serbia rebooted without Good Milos/Bad Milos truly unthinkable? How much more likely does this become with a first-round exit from Slovenia in 2013?

Sep 9, 2012ballineurope

This post was published on September 9, 2012

Comments: 26

hamza
12 years ago
teodosic has to go…..i used to love him but i think he is a more a media product than anything else….all i remember great was a couple of alley opp passes to childress in his mvp year, the SHOT against spain….but how many time can he choke, like he did in title euroleague game for CSKA moscow or in last 2 years for serbia….serbia werent at the olympics because of his appalling attitude and performance vs greece in 6th place game in lithuania….he has to be dropped for israel game, give the point to nedovic and rasic
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Gabe
12 years ago
And still this “horrible” player who can’t even beat Estonia was all-Euroleague second team last year, and 3 years ago all Euroleague MVP. lol
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Michael
12 years ago
And LeBron was “NBA MVP” and could not even beat a Dallas team made up of Dirk and a bunch of guys that would be lucky to even make the rotation of most Euroleague teams.
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- Gabe
  12 years ago
  You’re obviously trolling or retarded. Dirk arguably one of the top five players in the world. And Jason Kidd, Jason Kerry, Shawn Marion and Tyson Chandler? All players who would be all-Euroleague 1st team and in the running for Euroleague MVP if they choose to play in that inferior league. Take for example Kirilenko and Krstic!
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  - Gabe
    12 years ago
    And also how is this even a discussion. James has two FIBA gold medals while Teodosic can’t beat Israel, Montenegro or Estonia! lol
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Locke
12 years ago
Who the hell is this Gabe jackass? What a douche bag.
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DallasTexasSaqartvelo
12 years ago
Okay, let me analyze the post by Michael because he attacked the 2011 World Champs.

PG- Jason Kidd: 56-0 All time in international play with two Olympic gold medals. One of the best PGs of all time.

SG- Jason Terry: Former 6th man of the year, would be All-Euroleague 1st team and would start and be the leading scorer on any Euroleague team.

SF- Shawn Marion: Should have been all-defense 1st team this year, better than Kirilenko throughout his career, and Kirilenko was Euroleague MVP.

PF- Dirk: Best euro player of all-time. One of the greatest players ever.

C- Tyson Chandler- Starting Center for Team USA in this olympics (Gold), last World Championships (Gold). NBA defensive player of the year.

Peja Stojacovic, JJ Barea, DeShawn Stevenson, Cardinal and Brendan Haywood came off the bench.

This team was unbelievable because they were a great “team”, and their leader, Dirk, played tougher than anyone in the NBA. The management of the Mavericks, Donnie Nelson (2nd best GM in basketball) and their head Coach, Rick Carlisle, have such a great track record, that I find it hard to believe that the Mavs won’t make another run this year. I don’t care if their roster looks totally different, these guys know what they are doing.
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mike
12 years ago
Dallas, my hometown Sixers and Eagles look good too. Take that, Dallas! hehe
On the Euroleague, it’s so over. No more excitement with the arguments. Same old clap trap. The euroleague should set up a tournament with the NBA-D league and the African league, and Australian league to determine the best minor league in the world.

that would be so exciting. Not.
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DallasTexasSaqartvelo
12 years ago
Haha I stayed at the Crowne Plaza on City Ave over by St. Joe’s last night, and I live up in Jersey for school so I try to go over to Pat’s Steaks as much as possible when I have friends visiting, although I like Tony Luke’s more. Love that town!!! Except the Iggles, who will have to do something more than beat Cleveland by 1 to make me a believer.

But ya, I don’t even know why it’s an argument anymore either. I started paying attention to the Euroleague back in 2004 when this argument was first gaining steam. Even after the ’04 debacle though, I never bought it. When you realize that the best players in Europe come to the NBA, Americans who didn’t quite make it in the NBA go over there and become stars, and the fact that, in that season (04-05), 4 of the all-euroleague 1st team came to the NBA within 2 seasons (MVP Parker, Saras, Macijauskas, Anderson), and only one of them, Parker, really stuck and made a difference, really cemented it for me that the talent in the Euroleague is not anywhere close to the same level as it is in the NBA…..

In fact, I just realized that we can actually make a good comparison for an All-Star game if we can just compare the All-Euroleague 1st and 2nd teams with the All-NBA 1st and 2nde teams…. let’s do that.

Euroleague:

1st team:

PG: Vassilis Spanoulis vs. Chris Paul = I’m going to go out on a limb and pick Paul, who was on the team that beat Nigeria by 86 instead of the won that lost. This will probably be controversial here, but there is no contest really. PAUL

SG: Dimitris Diamantidis vs. Kobe Bryant = Hmmm…. DD! Just kidding… I’ve got the 5 time champ, 10 time All-NBA 1st teamer, former MVP, and 2 time Olympic Gold medalist (undefeated in international play). BRYANT.

SF: Andrei Kirilenko vs. Kevin Durant = Wait, AK47 was the MVP and I’m picking KD? Durant is the 2nd best player in the world, Kirilenko will be a solid back-up in Minny. DURANT.

PF: Erazem Lorbek vs. LeBron = LeBron would embarrass Lorbek. Nothing against Lorbek, he got a bad draw here. LeBron is the best basketball player since Jordan. JAMES

C: Nenad Krstić vs. Dwight Howard = Dwight Howard. No question. Kristic was a decent NBA player, and was traded in 2011 for Kendrick Perkins, a much better player, who might be in the top 50 NBA players, but probably not. Dwight Howard. Here is an example…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw7U1BnBVB8. HOWARD

2nd Team:

PG: Miloš Teodosic vs. Russell Westbrook = Both were starters on the league runner-ups, but that is about all they have in common. Westbrook is a better at every facet of the game and is a better athlete than anyone on this list. Oh ya, he also won a gold in both the World Cup and the Olympics. Teodosic? Finished 4th in the World Cup and didn’t qualify for the olympics. Also, he is not a big game player, while Westbrook is. WESTBROOK.

PG/SG: Bo McCalebb vs. Dwayne Wade = McCalebb probably should, and will, be in the NBA. We he enters the league, he will come off the bench and be a decent role player. Dwayne Wade is Dwayne Wade. WADE.

SG/SF: Juan Carlos Navarro vs. Tony Parker = This is the best match-up. Navarro is nowhere close. He was an NBA role player, and Parker is a star who has won 3 NBA titles and could have easily had a 4th this year. He also played better in the olympics than Navarro this year. PARKER

PG/SG: Henry Domercant vs. Rajon Rondo = Why are there three guards on the All-Euroleague 2nd team? Going down to the All-NBA 3rd team to find another guard to compare here is still not much of an issue. Without a doubt, Rondo. Domercant is an American who never made it in the NBA and could walk the streets anonymously here. He might one day make it to the NBA, but would ride the bench. RONDO.

C: Mike Batiste vs. Andrew Bynum = Bynum has three titles and is the 2nd best Center in the league, closely ahead of Marc Gasol. Batiste used to play for Memphis, where he averaged 6.4 points and 3.4 rebounds. He is not an NBA player, but he is an American. BYNUM.

11th man: Georgios Printezis vs. Dirk Nowitzki = Dirk Nowitzki is the best non-American basketball player ever. This is not a question. NOWITZKI.

12th man: Ante Tomić vs. Marc Gasol = I only chose Marc to add some more international flavor, and the Euroleague needs another center on the team. GASOL.

Let’s end this nonsensical comparison and start taking about basketball now, shall we? lol.
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- Phileus
  12 years ago
  I disagree a bit with the Navarro/Parker match-up. It’s easy to forget because he was playing on a non-playoff team in Memphis, but Navarro had some brilliant games early in the season, matching up with Chris Paul and Jason Kidd very well. The last 1/3rd of his season was awful, maybe because he was fatigued, maybe because he was unmotivated since the Grizz weren’t making the playoffs.
  
  Parker’s Finals MVP is sometimes a bit misleading, because while he was great in that series, he was up against weak PG play and so his smart coach exploited that. He wasn’t the leader of the team, Duncan was, and he never will be the leader on a championship team. He totally deserved the award, but sometimes people mistake what it actually signified on that team.
  
  If Navarro had stuck around in the NBA, he could have been a fantastic starter or bench offense (in the Ginobili or Terry mold) on a contender (maybe not with Memphis). Would he have achieved the same level of individual success as Parker? I doubt that (Parker earned Finals MVP when he was younger than Navarro was as an NBA rookie…!) but I think the gap between the players is a lot smaller than you made it out to be, and many sensible people would rather have a prime Navarro than a prime Parker.
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hamza
12 years ago
this is getting really stupid..if you americans are so confident about nba’s superiority, why are you here arguing? it makes you look like you dont really believe what your saying…sying nohting would say much more…or just writing down statistics.

i love european basketball…it is very different to nba basketball, a whole different style, tactical systems, players skill sets are diffferent…the euroleague is a very high level of competition, the second best in the world which is not exactly something to be ashamed of…
between 2002-06…we saw nba players struggle to adapt to internaitonal basketball, and they lost, jugoslavia, greece, lithiuania, argentina etc…..

this being said…only a delusional nutcase would claim the nba is shit…it is the best league in the world, where the best americans (who right now are the best…nobody else has durant or lebron, for me that is the main differnence, not an aging kobe or limited technical player like tyson chandler or blake griffin) and MOST of the best euros play….apart from bodiroga, djordjevic etc have played in the nba…the really great ones..i.e dirk, peja, gasol, ak47, parker, manu (yes he is 100 percent european, italian/german parents , if anything you can remove parker from this list because he is half african american), vlade, sabonis , maybe gallinari in the future etc…all did well…spanoulis is a really good player in european context but at nba level he simply flopped, maybe its not all his fault but objectively he did…you greeks half to stop being so nationalistic and blind to the truth because you make yourselves look stupid and petty (like you also do in politics)…

in conclusion./…the euroleague is a great competition of a really high level (2nd best in the world) which I love watching for the skills, shooting, tactics and passing on display…
the nba is in the regular season a bit of a spectacle some times due to the amount of ‘bad’ (relatively) teams, but when it comes the the playoffs is simply the best….
in terms of international tournaments, the main difference is those 4-5 american players playing since 2008 who are simply unstoppable…..no international player right now cant stop lebron, durant, paul, melo etc…the proof is that with sometimes pretty shokcing organizagtion, and some boneheaded plays, team usa have been beating much more organized teams for the last 4 years, usually easily, except for lithuania and spain this year and brazil in 2010…they have been winning because of pure talent and athleticism…no one can deny this…this sport is in the blood of african americans and you have to acknowledge this….if they actually tried to pay with a more european style, then they would have beaten lithuania ( worst lithuanian team since 2009) by much more…as it was a 9-0 lebron run which no one on the planet could stop was enough this time

does everyone agree with this assesment? can we put an end to this ridiculous argument…as a basketball fan, i love nba and the euroleague and watch both equally
i think people who really love the game, and are not just euro or yankee internat trolls, would agree with me….the nba is in terms of star power the best league in the world, but the euroleague in terms of pure basketball is equally enjoyable, albeit less spectacular
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- Gabe
  12 years ago
  Yes we all agree with you hamza and DallasTexasSaqartvelo. The reason we are on this basketball site is we enjoy and respect European as well. There is just one (i think) little delusional troll on this site who flame baits us into the absurd debate that NBA is better than Euroleague argument and Spanoulis is one of the best players in the planet. Of course we all agree that the NBA is the best league in the world and the Euroleague is the second best and for their fans is equally enjoyable. Believe it or not I even respect Team Greece and still see them as the 4th best national team in the world and think they will be back in 2014. So from now on I will just try to ignore the true and discuss basketball.
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hamza
12 years ago
good…so we agree….im sorry for insulting you in the past but i thought you were being unfair..i was also wrong and didnt understand well your point of vieww

the debate i would rather have is who would win…1992 dream team or 2012…lol.ill put it out there and say 2012! now that is argument worth having
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Phileus
12 years ago
I agree with that, hamza, and I really do think it’s a matter of which style of play people prefer. I can totally understand someone who enjoys watching Team Greece’s play, even if they lose, more than they enjoy watching Team USA’s gold medal play, but to mistake personal preference for actual superiority is stupid.

I also don’t agree with your views on race or nationality but I doubt opinions about this topic have ever been changed in the history of internet arguments, so I’ll drop that 😛
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DallasTexasSaqartvelo
12 years ago
I’m really happy that a resolution has been achieved here! Hamza, I think you make a lot of really good points, and I especially like the one you make about Chandler/Griffin being a “limited skill player”. However, I believe that there is another side. The NBA, as a star powered league, is the way it is not simply because of marketing and money, it is the best way to win basketball games in my opinion.

For example, Chandler is a much better NBA player than an international player because the position of Center is different here. A great NBA team, like the 2011 Mavericks (I apologize for the plug), has a certain formula that they follow.

The center, in this case, Chandler, is expected to clog the middle, play tough defense to minimize the other team’s ability to gain momentum by getting easy baskets around the rim, and rebound. Chandler espoused all of these qualities, and has done so over the last two years. He fits a role, and while it would be great if he were like Shaq, Sabonis, Howard, Gasol, or Bynum and could score in the low post, it is unnecessary because that scoring comes elsewhere.

The power forward in the NBA has been the position most influenced by the ascent of European basketball and it has changed the game. Gasol, Duncan and Dirk can all shoot loghts out mid range, rebound, and pass in the post. This position went from a strong, stout guy like Barkley or Malone banging down low to a finesse position because of the European influence. This has enhanced the game, and it recreated the center position in the NBA because of it, making it unnecessary to have a scoring center. Yet, as the early-mid 2000s run and shoot teams like the Mavs, Sonics, Kings, and Suns discovered, you can not win a championship without that inside presence on defense.

This specialization of positions is why people like Steve Kerr have a spot in the NBA. If you do something at an elite level, like shoot, another specialist will compensate for a shortcoming like defense, someone like Bruce Bowen. The best point guards, like Rondo, don’t need to shoot well because they are countered with guys like Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Always though, great teams need someone like LeBron to score in all different ways, and everything goes around him.

In my opinion, it is the ultimate team game in the NBA because the leader, while he gets all of the attention, can do nothing without these specialists around him. With the 2012 Heat in the finals, there was always someone on the floor that could do anything needed, even though only two guys got most of the credit. It’s interesting because it is a very American concept! Whereas Euroleague basketball takes a Euro type attitude.

I could go on about this all-day, but I will stop here. I really like this topic though!

Also, it’s 2012, and ethnicity and nationality are not the same thing. I understand where Hamza is coming from though because in Europe, now more than ever, national identity is becoming muddled and confused because of open boarders and a shared currency just to name two of many things. People still want to feel like they belong to a culture that is distinct, but it is hard for a lot of people over there to classify theirs. It happened in America back in the 1800s, so it is understandable that it is happening there too. Give it a decade or two and people will start to reform their definitions of nationality in Europe as they begin to get used to the idea of a more open continent.
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Dumb Americans
12 years ago
Americans are the dumbest people on Earth. This discussion proves that.
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- Gabe
  12 years ago
  And here ladies and gentlemen is the troll that should to be ignored to keep the discussions in BiE from becoming silly flame wars.
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DallasTexasSaqartvelo
12 years ago
hahaha fantastic. Why doesn’t he use the name Apollo anymore? It had a sense of false grandiose about it that made his posts all the more absurd.

What about this discussion, oh God of the Son, do you find objectionable?
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- Gabe
  12 years ago
  Yeah he hasn’t used Apollo in months now, he gets made fun of too much. His main aliases now are Erik and Zoran and sometimes Michael, not to be confused with the other Mike on this site and now I see Locke (nice one). And his other aliases are juvenile things like Dumb American, Euroleague >> NBA, Gabe is gay, and other stupid things like that.
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DallasTexasSaqartvelo
12 years ago
Sun*
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DallasTexasSaqartvelo
12 years ago
What strikes me is the multicultural Apollo takes to his username. He also claims to be from different countries. I have gone back and looked at some threads, and goodness, they have entertainment value.

From here on out, I think we should have an “Apollo Post of the Week”.

Here is my nomination for this week, here we have Apollo writing as Miguel, as a part of his ongoing celebration of Spanish culture:

“Meanwhile, the Euroleague did its yearly Turkish Airlines and Euroleague official promotion ad. The players selected every year to do this are “the biggest stars that European basketball has”.
The three players selected were, Juan Carlos Navarro, Vassilis Spanoulis, and Sofoklis Schortsanitis, with Navarro and Spanoulis getting the obvious top billing of the 3.
Here is an article about the commercial and a pic from it.
http://www.sport-fm.gr/article/578117
So these American racists can say whatever they want about Spanoulis and Navarro. The fact of the matter is that they are 10 times bigget stars in Europe than 90% of the NBA players will ever be in the United States.
They are way more famous and bigger names in Europe than the vast majority of NBA players will ever be in the USA. And all the xenophobic and racist American NBA only fans that post here cannot stand that.”

Like some of Apollo’s finer works, this post begins innocently enough, pointing out an advertisement and three of his favorite players being involved in it. However, one of his patented transitions from the innocent to the absurd takes place in line 8, using the term racist to describe those who disagree with him. It then descends into chaos from there, into a web of dialect in which one cannot separate truth from fiction, or opinion from fact. Not one of his finer works of all time, as Philleous may agree, but a decent effort in an otherwise quite week from our friend, the Sun God.
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mike
12 years ago
Funny stuff. See Hamza, that’s why we keep coming back. We just love these crazy Euro Flat Earthers! They’re so adorable, you have to admit.
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- Gabe
  12 years ago
  I think there might be just one of them in fact.
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DallasTexasSaqartvelo
12 years ago
Has Apollo ever confronted these claims? Where does he go in these situations?
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Dumb Americans
12 years ago
I have never posted under the name Apollo before.

You idiot Americans.
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Jackson
12 years ago
Fenerbahce Ulker president Aziz Yıldırım was a guest at a football show on Turkish television NTVspor and he made shocking statements about Euroleague referees. Yıldırım said: ” Every referee that comes to Turkey to officiate a Euroleague game goes straight to Grand Bazaar. They buy expensive clothes, gifts and we pay for them. It’s like a tradition for euroleague referees because all other clubs did it in the past. I dare anyone-he’s talking about other Turkish clubs- to claim that they never did it. I can easily prove that each club has done that but it’s not for match fixing. In fact, Turkish Basketball Federation organizes this. They came here, we buy presents and sometimes lose the game. ”

Aziz Yıldırım was on national television to talk about match fixing scandals in Turkey for the first time after he spent almost a year in prison.
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